How We Develop By way of Life’s Hardest Moments with Suzan Song

Guy Kawasaki:
Hello, everyone. It’s Guy Kawasaki. This is the Remarkable People Podcast, and we’ve discovered one other outstanding individual to encourage and inform you. Her title is Suzan, not Susan, Suzan Song, and she or he is a psychiatrist and anthropologist.
Which if you consider it, that’s an attention-grabbing mixture. And she has written this very attention-grabbing ebook, Why We Suffer and How We Heal. And she has seen loads of struggling and loads of therapeutic. So welcome to the present, Suzan.

Suzan Song:
Thanks a lot for having me.

Guy Kawasaki:
I’d say it takes some focus and processing to know your ebook. It just isn’t like psychiatry or survival for dummies. This is a really, very refined ebook. So let me simply make certain I type of received the large image proper earlier than we proceed.
So it appears to me the key messages is that adversity is kind of inevitable and making an attempt to cling to this idea of stability is moderately futile, and that therapeutic is admittedly studying to stay with instability, and it takes these three, what you name associates, known as narrative, ritual, and function, and people three issues produce resilience.
And resilience just isn’t essentially a return to an previous and excellent self however is transformative during which you cope with uncertainty itself. And I believe one of many main instances you make is that this can’t be executed in isolation. It needs to be executed in a group.

Suzan Song:
You’ve received it. That’s sensible. Well executed synopsis. Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki:
Maybe we must always finish the interview proper right here.

Suzan Song:
Yeah, I do know, proper.

Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah, simply everyone exit and purchase this ebook. End of debate. Yeah, you may flip off your podcast proper now. Yeah. I hate to get darkish so quick, however I received to ask you this query. I simply learn this text that, , Homeland Security and ICE, they’ve incarcerated one thing like 500 infants and toddlers.
And after I learn that, I stated, “What goes to be the impression on these youngsters?” And you’ve got handled loads of issues like that. So are you able to simply clarify what occurs now?

Suzan Song:
Yeah. So as a psychiatrist and anthropologist, I additionally do coverage in humanitarian settings. So I work throughout the spectrum with survivors of torture, trafficking, compelled displacement, additionally compelled separation from the U.S., however then additionally the opposite facet with loads of founders, CEOs, these high-profile politicians, loads of these overachievers.
And what I discover fascinating are these people who find themselves capable of thrive regardless of the percentages. You meet somebody like a toddler who’s been separated from their household, or somebody who’s skilled trafficking or hostage, and you’d assume that they might have these everlasting lifelong scars. But there are such a lot of individuals I’ve met, and I’ve labored with which have the other.
They have this sense of groundedness and mastery in life, and I discover it so compelling. And in order that’s why this sort of framework happened.
And so once we discuss these youngsters who’re separated, or proper now there are loads of youngsters additionally in wars and armed dispute, there are loads of youngsters who’re in present exploitation and human trafficking. There’s no analogy. Those human rights violations actually fracture any analogy. It has to cease.
The human rights violations need to cease as a result of, in fact, there’s lifelong impression for a few of these youngsters, however for the people who find themselves not experiencing that degree of trauma, that degree of struggling, after I discuss instabilities, I believe individuals take into consideration these main traumas.
But they’re additionally just like the instabilities of what occurs when your organization is not doing so properly or while you appear to be doing high quality, however unexpectedly you lose the love of your life or a toddler has a serious prognosis or sickness, proper?
These are all of those instabilities that basically problem our sense of self and who we all know ourselves to be, and we get slightly upended. We’re like undecided what to do, and all of us say, “I simply need life to really feel secure once more.” And sadly, that does not occur. There’s no regular, secure level in life.
And instabilities are inevitable. So we will not attempt to keep away from them. We need to discover ways to stay with them and discover some instruments and put together ourselves when it comes.

Guy Kawasaki:
I’d be very to study, in your analysis, what separates the individuals who do not succumb to this and the individuals who do? Have you seen any commonality or any environmental components that fosters their stability or the fragility later?

Suzan Song:
So many individuals suppose that those that are most resilient are those who’ve grit, proper? They’re hardworking, they simply barrel by way of. They’ve received a type of laser-eye concentrate on the long run, and so they simply get by way of every thing, however that really to me is simply endurance.
And generally they’re enduring a system that they should not be. It’s like an unjust system. So I do not see grit and barreling by way of as resilience. I believe the folks that I see that develop from their struggling or they do not get caught in it are those that, one, have a unique kind of narrative, however two, they really have extra assist.
Because I believe as Americans, we frequently suppose that our struggling, it is so individualized, it is all so privatized. Like you undergo a tough time, you get every week off of labor, you go cope with it, perhaps discuss one-on-one with a therapist, and also you come again and also you’re presupposed to be like executed and healed and simply return to being productive.
And let me make a distinction. So there’s ache, which is the precise occasion, after which there’s struggling. So the ache is when the corporate fails or while you lose a liked one, that is ache. But the struggling is just like the narratives we make round it.
So if my firm does properly, meaning I’m profitable. If my firm does not do properly, it means I’m a failure. Those are narratives that may create the struggling. I’m not a failure as a result of my firm failed, these are very various things. So our struggling oftentimes comes from these narratives that we create about what’s taking place in our lives.

Guy Kawasaki:
And is it actually studying and actually creating resilience? Or is it simply that some persons are higher at hiding it?

Suzan Song:
There are so many individuals which are performing stability proper now. Look, I’m based mostly in D.C., many individuals round me are out of jobs and so they’ve seen and skilled very firsthand type of the collapse of main establishments and buildings that they know.
I additionally work within the humanitarian sector, which can be going by way of its personal, like USAID is actually gutted. And persons are actually struggling, and but loads of the struggling is as a result of they’re making an attempt to carry out like every thing’s okay, I’m good. Like issues are exhausting, however I’m good. And I’m discovering that persons are not okay.
I see this quite a bit as a result of I additionally cut up time within the Bay Area too. So I’m in San Francisco and I work with loads of founders and tech individuals.
And I discover that tradition very fascinating to type of examine the 2 completely different cultures, each on the East Coast and the West Coast. Because within the tech group particularly, there’s this tradition round like disruption and taking dangers and being actually progressive.
So to me, I used to be like, okay, that tradition, that group understands that stability is an phantasm, that we have to take dangers and we have to problem. But really, my expertise is that beneath that tradition is loads of strain to adapt. Like additionally individuals in tech, in addition they must be like productive and visionary and the chance taker.
And there’s this actually, actually bizarre relentless optimism and this like concentrate on scaling that it turns into its personal type of stability in a manner. And what I see is loads of technical adaptability, however not a lot emotional one.
And I do not know if it is because the communities, they know one another very properly and when you’ve gotten a group that the work and life steadiness is extra porous, just like the boundaries, you go on a motorcycle trip, however you are additionally speaking about work and issues like that.
People do not feel as snug speaking about, “Oh, I’m feeling burnt out,” or “Oh, I’m nervous about my firm not doing properly,” or “I’m undecided which route to take this,” or “I’m actually struggling in my marriage.”
They’re not as keen or open to speak about these items, and they also grow to be performative, and their identification turns into, one, round being competent, like, “I’m a reliable individual.”
And that fails as a result of instabilities, by definition, are ones during which we do not know. We do not know find out how to cope with the surprising lack of a liked one. It’s simply by nature.

Guy Kawasaki:
So wait, are you saying that there are some people who find themselves not actually secure, they’re simply faking it otherwise you stated it is not simply grit. Do you identical to take your fears and put it in slightly field and also you disguise it otherwise you throw it away?
Or do you face it together with your pal? I imply, what’s the most effective follow right here?

Suzan Song:
What I see, and I’m speaking principally about like excessive performers as a result of most people I work with are like very high-performing, high-achieving. In order to get there, like individuals aren’t simply born and so they’re excessive attaining.
There is a sure ability set that folks need to study over time, and most of it’s like overriding concern or compartmentalizing actually good or placing others’ wants earlier than your individual, or virtually like hiding your self as a result of particularly if it’s important to care for different individuals, when you’ve received youngsters or household or associates or corporations, individuals counting on you.
So that ability set is definitely precisely why excessive performers, I consider, are generally essentially the most weak when there’s an instability as a result of they have not realized find out how to sit with it and be with it. They’ve executed the precise reverse, proper? They’ve stated, “My identification is being competent, and so I understand how to do this. I understand how to get by way of, clear up any downside that comes my manner.”
But once they’re identified with one thing like a most cancers prognosis or their baby is, it actually fractures that identification as being competent, after which they don’t seem to be positive what’s left. So they’re upended slightly bit. So my highest achievers are those who’re the worst at figuring out once they’re struggling as a result of they have been performing simply so properly.

Guy Kawasaki:
We’ve been specializing in the people who find themselves struggling and instability and all that. But going again to my unique query in regards to the 500 infants that ICE and DHS has imprisoned, perhaps you may shed some gentle on this for me, which is I simply can not perceive how anyone, even only a modest quantity of decency can presumably rationalize incarcerating infants and toddlers.
So what goes by way of their thoughts that claims, “Yeah, we’re defending America. We’re taking these infants away.” I do not perceive it. Explain this to my easy mind. I can not relate to this in any respect.

Suzan Song:
And that could be a big supply of power for you you could’t rationalize as a result of it is mindless, proper? There are some individuals who consider that some are extra deserving of human rights, of fundamental human rights, than others.
And I work in genocides, as properly, and the extra that you just see somebody othering one other and so they dehumanize them. So it is the opposite, whether or not it is the opposite tribe, whether or not it is the opposite individual of a unique pores and skin colour, pores and skin tone, no matter it’s with xenophobia, once we different somebody and we dehumanize them, then they don’t seem to be an actual individual.
As an instance, I work with former baby troopers in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Burundi. And I keep in mind I used to be speaking with one in Burundi, and I had requested him basically, “How are you doing now given every thing?”
And he had talked about he had assaulted many, and one of many initiations for being a toddler soldier in some international locations is the armed power will make you, as a toddler, return to your village and also you sexually assault the ladies in your village or group, you maim the lads and boys, you steal, so that you could’t return to that village.
The solely residence you’ve gotten is that armed power, and so this one which I had been working with had talked about how he had dedicated loads of atrocities amongst his village members, however he appeared comparatively unfazed by it. And I requested, “How are you not affected by the previous?” And he basically stated, “Because they deserved it.” Right? “They wronged me.”
He had witnessed his uncle being murdered, and that is a part of the indoctrination, proper? So the armed power had advised him basically, “This is justice that you just’re doing. This is revenge. This is you creating a greater planet.” Right? “You’re creating a greater place for your loved ones.”
And so that is what they consider. And so for him, he sleeps high quality at evening as a result of he feels that he was really doing God’s work by eliminating individuals. And I believe that is what you see in loads of these type of genocides, human rights violations. They’re actually dehumanizing individuals.

Guy Kawasaki:
So discuss a bifurcation of purchasers. You have baby troopers and individuals who have been victims of warfare and genocides and all that. On the opposite hand, you’ve gotten a follow in Silicon Valley.
You can take the Fifth Amendment on this query, however I’ve to ask you, as a result of as I used to be studying your ebook, I stated, “Ah, I can not cope with this, such a separation between these two extremes of her purchasers.”
So I’ve to ask you, do you ever throw up slightly bit while you meet with a few of your Silicon Valley tech purchasers and, they’re saying, “Oh my God, I can not discover a good nanny. My earnings taxes are so excessive. My older child is on the wait listing for Dartmouth and Stanford. I do not know what to do. I really feel so unstable.” Do you ever, say to your self, “What the fuck are you complaining about?”

Suzan Song:
It’s so attention-grabbing as a result of individuals ask me that quite a bit, and one, I do not examine struggling.

Guy Kawasaki:
You’re a greater individual than me.

Suzan Song:
I really love all of the folks that I work with, and I’m very lucky to work with good individuals on all accounts, however I do not examine the struggling as a result of the ache, the occasion could be completely different.
But the therapeutic and the mechanism of struggling is definitely very, very comparable, which is why I wrote this ebook. I began writing it in the course of the pandemic when my clinic had shut down and I used to be now seeing individuals on my Zoom display screen, like hostage survivor, CEO, and so they had been very, very comparable themes of struggling.
And what I actually needed to share for them was that there are alternative ways of therapeutic throughout cultures and contexts that everybody can study from one another. So I do not really. Suffering is principally when our actuality is not matching with what we wish, our needs.
And generally that divide is a large delta, generally it is smaller. But I’ve loads of coronary heart. I like working with people who find themselves excessive achievers largely as a result of generally they’re those who’ve the ability to have an effect on change in our planet.
And to me, my work is supporting individuals. I assist individuals and programs basically. And so if I can assist individuals, particularly to have a stronger ethical compass and to work from that area, and if one of many obstacles to them having the ability to do that’s that they are fighting their child or no matter, then high quality, proper?
I simply need individuals to be their finest selves in order that they’ll make the planet a greater place.

Guy Kawasaki:
Like I stated, Suzan, you’re a higher individual than me as a result of I can not maintain these two conflicting ideas in my head on the identical time. If I learn this proper, one of many issues that you just made enjoyable of, if not criticized, is this sort of business of influencers, and you’ve got these quote graphics and also you inform your self you are worthy and so they have these footage and posters and motivational issues.
And my interpretation is you were not precisely optimistic on these issues. So are you able to inform me, extra precisely state, what’s your perspective in the direction of that type of stuff?

Suzan Song:
Yeah, I believe lots of people are targeted on self-optimization. And in our society, we’re so targeted on autonomy, our particular person autonomy, and our introspection and optimization. So we need to optimize.
Everyone’s sporting their Oura Rings or monitoring their sleep or monitoring their macronutrients or no matter and that is all high quality. But it is such an insular focus, and I believe it is so insular as a result of that is what’s straightforward to monetize.
There’s an enormous business round self-help and wellness, and even this time period psychological well being, which look, I’m a psychiatrist, however I can not stand this complete time period of psychological well being and all this psychological well being discuss that we’re doing as a result of it is virtually this navel gazing.
Not everybody must know your emotions at each single second, we do not have to be, like, speaking about our ideas. We’re so obsessive about our ideas. We can take them out of our head. We need to look at with a microscope after which do all this modifications in our mindset and cognitive reframing and all that stuff.
Great. But in the remainder of the planet, individuals do not have therapists. They do not have all these optimistic affirmations and no matter. They heal in relationship. They heal when they’re wanted by somebody, once they matter to somebody, once they really feel they belong in a group. And one purpose why I’m actually grateful that in my work, I began my coaching as a psychiatrist within the U.S.
At the identical time, I had a parallel profession doing coverage in humanitarian settings, so I used to be working with baby troopers. And there was one early on that I met, and she or he was a intercourse slave. So many individuals consider baby troopers, and so they consider the fighters. But a toddler soldier is anybody who’s beneath eighteen who was a porter, a messenger, a cook dinner, or a intercourse slave.
So she was a intercourse slave for about ten years. And as I used to be speaking along with her, I used to be considering like, how she’s functioning high quality, she’s received an excellent life, good household. How did she get by way of this? And she stated it was one factor, and it wasn’t speaking to her family members about all of the issues she’d gone by way of.
It was that her village elder introduced collectively the group and so they did a physique purification ritual, and that ritual made her really feel like she now belongs to a group, and now they accepted her, and now she felt like she was atoned of her sins and no matter else she had skilled.
So it is actually within the sense of belonging that I see oftentimes we’re lacking right here. And so we focus a lot on our bubble baths and our walks and in the event that they give you the results you want, nice. But I discover that it is like these non permanent fixes.
What we really must do is step outdoors of ourselves. I see accountability as a privilege. I really feel very honored to care for individuals, whether or not it is my family members, the individuals I work with, my youngsters. I discover that could be a privilege, and I believe that results in a way of belonging and therapeutic.

Guy Kawasaki:
Well, Suzan, I received to say that I’m a Silicon Valley type of man, and what you’ve got simply described is type of a contradiction right here. Everything right here is about me, myself, and I, my efficacy, my self-reliance, my all this. And time and again on this podcast, we preserve listening to individuals say, “It’s group. It’s group.”
It just isn’t your single-handed, heroic, type of stance, so I admire the message. Could you opine on whether or not women and men cope with adversity in another way and heal in another way?

Suzan Song:
That’s attention-grabbing, I believe it is really much less of a gender concern and a few of it’s that I imply, this can be a big generalization, however society tends to permit ladies to have extra relational experiences. Like they’re nearer, we’re extra open to speaking about issues, in fact, however I would not say it is so cut up by gender.
I believe I see it extra within the underlying drivers of why individuals do the issues that they do. So for instance, you are in Silicon Valley, so like I work with founders quite a bit. I do know loads of these founders, ladies founders too, and their strategies of coping are exact same.
Men and ladies founders, high quality. And I do not know if individuals discuss it in Silicon Valley, however loads of the founders that I see even have important traumatic experiences, or they’ve one thing they’re making an attempt to show from childhood that’s not talked about very a lot, however it’s pushing them.
It permits them to push quite a bit. And I do not know that they’ve the social helps or perhaps the cultural helps like we’re speaking about particularly within the Bay Area, of truly deeply partaking with themselves and with others at giant. Now, I do know lots of people will go to love they’re going to do meditation retreats and mindfulness retreats, and even that to me it is all like self-focused.
It’s extra navel gazing about what our ideas are. Everyone is aware of we’d like extra connection, Bay Area tech or not. Everyone is aware of that group is sweet for us, however there’s this paradox of connecting. Like we all know that, however nobody is aware of find out how to do it.
And I believe we’ve social media and that it provides us like false intimacy. And once we’re sitting with individuals now, we’re shedding the friction of getting to have interaction with individuals and sit with them by way of that engagement. I work with youngsters too, loads of youngsters, and oftentimes they’re going to say, “Oh, this individual’s annoying. I simply do not need to cope with them anymore.”
I’m like, “Everybody’s annoying. Find me one individual. You’re going to be annoying. We’re all going to be annoying.” So we’ve to take a seat with that friction of sure, this individual is annoying. Do we need to spend money on that? Do we not? How can we pull out the most effective of them?
All of these softer abilities, I believe we’re shedding that in a few of the communities that we’re making an attempt to have interaction with.

Guy Kawasaki:
So the irony of all of that is superficially you suppose, All proper, to be a robust individual, it’s important to be a robust particular person. But actually you can’t be sturdy and resilient with out serving to others. It’s in regards to the outward focus, proper?

Suzan Song:
The people who find themselves essentially the most resilient are those who’re capable of embrace the adversity at hand. And they achieve this, in fact, relationally, but it surely’s this sense of like, I matter to another person.
Or they give thought to who I need to matter to. I labored with this one hostage survivor. I believe it was seven years deprivation, like complete sensory deprivation hostage. And in fact, you need to know, like, how did you get by way of it?
And he stated, “It was actually fascinated with, if I ever get out of right here, I need to ensure that all the hostages across the planet know that they don’t seem to be going to be left behind. I’ll make it my level. It will probably be my life to ensure that I care for them, or I attempt to launch them.”
So that sense of mattering to a different individual is what carried him by way of all of that seven years deprivation. And I preserve considering to myself, if he can do this, then that is one thing that we will all study slightly bit from of who do I need to matter to?

Guy Kawasaki:
This is the Viktor Frankl story again and again, proper? Except my best concern is that the subsequent Viktor Frankl goes to be like Victor Fuentes or one thing, proper? That’s what it should be. So you launched this idea of the three associates of therapeutic.
So we received to cowl the three associates of therapeutic. But earlier than you clarify the three associates of therapeutic, I need to know why you name them associates as an alternative of instruments or strategies or finest practices or one thing like that. Why do you name them associates of therapeutic?

Suzan Song:
Yeah. So it is really, the “Three Friends of Winter,” and so my father handed away after I was very younger, and I’d sit in our front room and simply type of undergo previous picture albums.
So I’m Korean American, round me in the lounge had been these Asian artwork scrolls, and so they all have the identical, it is an Asian artwork motif known as the “Three Friends of Winter,” and so they’re bamboo, plum blossom, and pine.
And these are the three hardiest crops within the winter. They survive any winter, and so they type of flourish and develop by way of the harshest of climate. And so I thought of that quite a bit, simply that Asian artwork motif. And after I was scripting this ebook and fascinated with, How do these individuals actually flourish regardless of all the percentages?
It simply appeared like an easy match. So narrative, ritual, and function map on very clearly as a result of they’re what I name a psychosocial vaccine. They are the methods we get by way of the instabilities to return.

Guy Kawasaki:
Now you bought to outline narrative, rituals, and function. You suppose I’m going to only allow you to off the hook like that? What is that this a check?

Suzan Song:
Yeah. So narratives are the tales and explanations that we inform. And I believe everyone knows that all of us have a narrative. Sometimes we do not know our backstory, however the frequent instance is that if somebody bumps you on the grocery retailer, like what’s a narrative that you just inform about that individual? They’re a jerk or, oh, perhaps they’re actually busy or no matter.
So all of us have these tales, however then I am going slightly bit deeper into saying, we’ve these underlying hidden motors which are driving every thing that we do, how we understand actuality even, and we’re so unaware of them, however they create these repetitive patterns in our lives, particularly in relationships or within the office that we’re comparatively unaware of.
And due to our narratives, we frequently have generally these porcupines. Like all of us have these porcupine quills that come out each time we get near one thing actually weak. And generally our quills could be like overworking or we’d drink an excessive amount of, or I do know loads of climbers, like rock climbers, are at all times like actually obsessive about climbing, proper?
Those can really be quills, like they’re hiding one thing, an underlying vulnerability. That’s only a extra prosocial manner of coping with it. So our narratives are principally our inner, like our logic, our working mannequin of how we relate to the planet. But perception alone does not create change.
So we’d like one thing behaviorally. So rituals come into play as a result of rituals then assist us embody our insights and our values into motion. So if we take into consideration any tradition, if somebody loses a liked one, everybody has a ritual of find out how to get by way of that grief. And they’re so vital as a result of they allow you to scaffold your feelings once we simply cannot suppose our manner by way of it.
So narratives give perception, rituals offer you, type of, motion, after which function provides route. So I see lots of people who’re high of their recreation, they bought their firm, and so they’re like, “I really feel so empty. I do not know what to do with my life. I’m undecided find out how to spend my sources and my power.”
And that is the place function comes into play. And function just isn’t one thing to seek out. We’re already dwelling out our function, so we simply need to faucet into the place we’re resonant within the planet, coherent. And generally we’re taking part in at our function as a result of we’re searching for a corrective expertise of one thing from our previous.
So the one that, for example they grew up in relative poverty and now they need to, in fact, assist an obstacle, proper? That’s a really clear instance, however our function is definitely additionally from what we simply talked about earlier than, is a way of mattering to another person. So while you ask, who do you need to matter to?
And that may allow you to direct your energies and function. And all of that, these “Three Friends of Winter” are associates as a result of all of that is executed in relation to others.

Guy Kawasaki:
I additionally discovered it very attention-grabbing, the order during which you defined this, proper? So you discuss narrative, rituals, and function. I’d’ve thought you’d’ve began with function, no?

Suzan Song:
And it is high quality to combine and match. I believe I begin with narrative as a result of that is the place so many individuals stay. We all stay in our heads, and we’re so drawn by these narratives that we’re actually not conscious of. And let’s simply take into consideration relationships. It’s fairly frequent if I’ve somebody who grew up with an alcoholic father and so they say, “Okay, I’m by no means going to marry somebody with an alcohol dependancy.”
And they get married and the man does not, however he is received a piece dependancy. And so it is the identical kind of feeling that they are experiencing, however simply now, they’re making an attempt to beat and making an attempt to say, “Okay, I’ll win this individual’s love.” But the issue is that by no means occurs. It’s simply the cycles that type of preserve repeating themselves.

Guy Kawasaki:
This is the idea that you just introduce known as repetitive compulsion.
When I learn that, I stated, “On the floor how will you have repetitive compulsion?” But then while you clarify this, I do know individuals, I do know myself, we’ve repetitive compulsion.
So would you please clarify that idea?

Suzan Song:
Let me clarify by way of a narrative. So I discovered myself, perhaps a pair a long time again, in hiding from former baby troopers in Burundi. And on the time, I used to be doing a PhD there on intergenerational stress, and one in every of my former baby troopers simply went slightly off the rails, and so my crew pushed me into hiding, and I needed to flee the nation.
When I used to be in hiding, I used to be considering, What am I doing? I used to be, like, a single Asian American girl in the midst of a rustic nobody is aware of about in hiding for my life from baby troopers. Like, how did I get right here?
And instantly I believed, “Oh, it is Dad.” So my father, after I was fifteen years previous, my father was assaulted outdoors of our liquor retailer, and he later died from his accidents.
I had basically recreated the same scene of violence from a long time earlier than, however this time round it was me that was experiencing the violence, and I’d have the management in ensuring I used to be secure. That is a repetitive compulsion. Repetition compulsion, the place there’s one thing that occurred earlier.
My father handed away. I did not have the talents or the attention to know find out how to handle the concern and the helplessness and the anger and all of that. And on the time, I did not go to remedy or something. I labored three jobs, did all the faculties, and so that you simply type of work by way of it.
Literally work, I, like, labored quite a bit. I believed I used to be okay. I actually did. I afterward went to remedy as a result of that is what you do as a psychiatrist. As a part of your coaching, you interact in your individual remedy. But it wasn’t till my unconscious had repeated that very same cycle, and now I’m in Burundi, “What the hell am I doing right here?”
That I noticed I had created that comparable scene. And all of us do that. It does not need to be as traumatic. I used to be simply working with somebody who she’s company, and she or he at all times finds herself as what she calls second finest. This is her third job the place she’s the second finest, perhaps the VP degree.
And she’s like, “I do not know why I can not make it to the very, very high. That’s what I would like.” She’s hungry. And I requested her, “Where have you ever felt this earlier than?” And it was a sample, and it began off when she was a child. Her brother had dependancy, and so the household was at all times targeted on the brother, and so she at all times felt second finest.
And so now her unconscious has someway repeated the identical cycle at each work scenario the place she feels the very same manner, in order that’s repetition compulsion. We all stay by way of these cycles unknowingly.

Guy Kawasaki:
From the surface wanting in, I’d say you being caught in that life-threatening scenario, could not you simply make the case that you just picked this profession in psychiatry and serving to individuals with trauma, and also you went into the sphere to service them, and you bought into a foul scenario?
It’s not repetitive compulsion. It’s simply unhealthy luck. No?

Suzan Song:
It may have been besides I at all times had a way that I used to be being pulled by one thing that is bigger than simply myself. And I used to be upping the ante. I’ve been pushing from a younger age. It’s not simply working with like youngsters who’re sexually assaulted. It’s then working with baby troopers.
And at one level, really, I used to be speaking with regulation enforcement about going undercover within the trafficking planet, so I saved pushing the boundary virtually to see, am I making an attempt to die or what? And I believe that is the place if we will pause and say, “What is happening? Why are all of us doing the issues that we’re doing?”
I’m at all times very inquisitive about why individuals work, what makes them do the roles that they are doing or stay the best way that they do. And oftentimes it is some kind of corrective expertise or it is one thing associated to patterns of the previous.

Guy Kawasaki:
This could also be a type of a non-sequitur, but it surely simply popped into my mind. So having handled these individuals who have gone by way of these horrific experiences, do you suppose that the full launch of the Epstein recordsdata and bringing these individuals to justice, does it actually assist the victims?

Suzan Song:
So that is exhausting. I’ve executed a few interviews across the Epstein recordsdata as a result of I work in trafficking. And the best way that the entire case, the way it was managed and the general public nature of it and displaying the survivors’ names and even addresses and that is a particularly traumatic expertise, re-traumatizing once more.
And it is not simply that their names had been launched and so they’re re-experiencing the traumatic occasion, it is also the anticipation of doubtless one thing else taking place due to that. It’s like the opposite downstream results from that. And the mind, once we are, for example, quote, “triggered,” once we’re reminded of those previous horrible issues, our brains work in a really particular manner.
Our menace heart’s activated, and the mind, it is a predictive machine. Our mind is simply predictive. That’s why we’re at all times fascinated with, Okay, if this occurs, then what is going on to occur? And we hate predictive errors, and so we’ll continually be making up tales, and that is what nervousness is.
We’re simply creating tales and hypotheses about future issues we do not know if they are going to occur or not. And so our brains get slim and so they concentrate on menace and potential menace. So if there’s justice, both with the Epstein recordsdata or fact and reconciliation committees and issues, generally that may be therapeutic as a result of there’s this ease of, properly, justice has been served.
But loads of occasions individuals attempt to concentrate on discovering a way of closure and therapeutic on their very own as a result of it is too highly effective to outsource that to another person, and we do not know if justice will really be served or not.
And so the extra that folks can discover their very own sense of therapeutic and mastery over it, not by way of avoidance and never by way of simply getting over it, however true resilience and therapeutic, I believe, is integration. It’s the combination of what has occurred, how has it affected me, and the way do I need to deliberately transfer ahead in my life?

Guy Kawasaki:
Thank you for that. Going again to your father for a second, I hope I received this proper. You had a dialogue about reminiscence, and proper me if I’m fallacious, however the best way I interpreted is you stated that you just had a reminiscence of your father getting shot on this theft and dying from this assault, proper?
But then you definitely went again and you actually found that he was launched from the hospital. He was outdoors of the hospital for a couple of yr, after which he died. It wasn’t like he received shot. He died. There was like an entire yr the place he was out and again in society. And you made the purpose about how reminiscences are so inaccurate. Did I get that story proper? What’s the lesson there?

Suzan Song:
Yeah, one purpose why I’m actually grateful each for this ebook and for my agent as a result of as I used to be scripting this ebook, I’m like middle-aged now, and my father died after I was fifteen years previous. So I used to be scripting this ebook, and I used to be writing about my father and this Burundi expertise, and my agent stated, “Tell me extra about your father.”
And I stated, “I do not know something extra.” Because what occurs while you lose a father or mother throughout childhood, you do not kind any new reminiscences, and what I’ve entry to could be very restricted. This is again within the day, virtually pre-internet.
So I did not have a lot data to go off of, and so I attempted to Google and to see if there was any kind of documentation, and there was one thing within the Baltimore Sun, and it had talked about simply the dates of his assault and the dates of his loss of life.
And the decide had talked about one thing about the way it was an tried homicide. And I believed, “It’s not tried. He really died from his stabbings. I do not perceive.” And that is after I tried to piece collectively the dates, and I noticed, oh, he really had come residence for a full yr.
And I requested my mom, and she or he stated, “Oh yeah, he did.” I used to be most likely taking part in violin for him. I used to be making him dinner. I do not keep in mind any of this.
And if she would inform me that, my reminiscence is so suggestible that I’d say, “Oh, perhaps I do not forget that. I really do not know.” But that is the ability of our reminiscences as a result of all of us suppose that our brains are simply recording data, particularly our reminiscences, and it is not like that.
Just to get into slightly bit, simply so we perceive, reminiscence formation is sort of a tennis match. So you’ve gotten two gamers, and so they’re bouncing throughout these electrochemical impulses. You have two neurons bouncing throughout this impulse. So the extra that these two play collectively, the stronger the sign’s going to be.
The higher gamers they are going to be, the stronger the reminiscence is fashioned. Now, when you and I are taking part in and I’m like not feeling good, I did not eat properly final evening, I had an argument with my child, one thing, I’m not going to play as properly. So I’m going to point out up on courtroom, and I’m going to be groggy and irritated, and so I’m going to play, I’m going to mess up fairly a bit.
The identical factor occurs with reminiscence. So if I have never had espresso within the morning, or it is dependent upon who I’m speaking to, or if I’m in a foul temper, it should change the best way that I recall the reminiscence and the way I clarify it. So if all of us take into consideration, everybody’s had a primary love, perhaps a primary love breakup, perhaps individuals have not.
But for many who have, you consider that individual and what you stated about that individual proper after the breakup, “I can not consider they did this to me,” or “I’m by no means going to be anyone,” or no matter. And now you consider them and the way you’re feeling about that complete breakup now. Hopefully, your story is completely different.
Hopefully, your narrative is completely different. It’s the identical expertise, it is the identical occasion, however how we course of it’s completely different. And so when I’m working with individuals or I’m seeing individuals, and their corporations are having conflicts with one another round what really occurred, what we all know is it does not matter as a lot as a result of our reminiscences are so depending on exterior states.
And our reminiscences are so suggestible that if we hear one thing later or if a colleague type of tells us, “Oh, this really occurred,” we’re more likely to take up that into our reminiscences. And so reminiscences are reconstructions continually, and I believe we’ve to be trustworthy about that in all of {our relationships}.

Guy Kawasaki:
Suzan, after I learn that story, I used to be shocked. That is a shocking factor to suppose that your father was killed on this assault, however actually he got here residence, he had a yr, after which he died. He died of most cancers, proper?

Suzan Song:
Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki:
That is wonderful, that could be a actually large distinction between the way you remembered it, proper?

Suzan Song:
Yes. And that is virtually the great thing about reminiscences is that the mind was doing that in a manner of defending me, and it does this for all of us.
I work with so many individuals, or I see so many individuals who shut down giant elements of their childhood or giant elements of a relationship or one thing as a result of it is like our brains solely have a lot capability, and so we need to defend ourselves in order that we will nonetheless transfer ahead, and generally you simply received to maintain going.

Guy Kawasaki:
Maybe that is repetitious, however I would like you to summarize if a listener is listening to all this and encounters adversity or challenges or no matter, like what is the Suzan Song that is what you need to do? What’s your advice right here?

Suzan Song:
Well, first I’d say it is okay to embrace the instability, which means we do not keep away from, we interact with the instability. And to know that therapeutic occurs in a way of belonging. Healing just isn’t this particular person sport. It is thru a way of belonging and relationships and a way of mattering to your self and to different individuals.
And so we will use our narratives to assist convey us some readability. We can use our rituals to assist us really feel grounded once we simply cannot suppose our manner by way of it. And then we use our function to offer us a way of route on find out how to course of so we will transfer ahead.

Guy Kawasaki:
In a nutshell, you are saying you bought to get out of your self, proper?

Suzan Song:
We have to know ourselves, but additionally to actually join and have interaction in a significant manner with the surface planet. Yeah.

Guy Kawasaki:
So you may take into account this heresy, or perhaps it is already true, are you able to see a planet the place an LLM or AI usually might be this sense of group and allow you to get by way of this? Or is that this at all times going to be individuals, it will possibly by no means be know-how?

Suzan Song:
Yeah. I’m open to AI, proper? And I believe the place I see AI as being very useful is in figuring out the narrative elements, the cognitive distortions, and serving to reframe, and particularly if somebody makes use of quite a bit, they’ll see the patterns in an individual.
That’s all actually useful, however I discover it is non permanent as a result of what really helps with therapeutic is our mirror neurons, it goes again to being a primate.
We want to have the ability to see one another, and one thing completely different occurs when it is these micro expressions, you may see me, you may inform perhaps if I’m, like, struggling or I’m going by way of a tough time, or when you see my tear is about to occur for some purpose, proper?
That sense of being seen and being recognized, that’s extraordinarily vital to the human expertise. So I believe it is helpful as a software, however I do not suppose it is a alternative for being seen and understood in a human manner.

Guy Kawasaki:
All righty. I actually admire this hour you’ve got spent with us, and my listeners will certainly, absolutely come away from this with some abilities and a few data and insights. I thanks very a lot for doing this.

Suzan Song:
Oh, thanks for having me.

Guy Kawasaki:
Yeah. And let me thank my crew. You’ve already been interacting with Madisun, so that she’s a outstanding individual too.
And there’s different individuals on the crew like Jeff Sieh, who’s co-producer on the digital know-how facet with Shannon Hernandez. And we even have a researcher named Tessa Nuismer. So there’s a crew behind me that makes this Remarkable People Podcast outstanding. Thank you very a lot for doing this.
And, yeah, yet another time, I’ll offer you as an creator, , creator to creator. This is the ebook, Why We Suffer and How We Heal. She undoubtedly solutions these two questions in that. Thank you very a lot, Suzan. All the most effective to you.

Suzan Song:
Thank you.